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Joe Rogan Experience #1242 - Tim Pool

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Tim Pool is an independent journalist. His work can currently be found at timcast.com and on his ESvid channel: esvid.net/show-UCG749Dj4V2fKa143f8sE60Q

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9 feb 2019

Joe Rogan ExperiencepodcastJRE #12421242Tim PoolJoe RogannewsjournalismTwitterJack DorseyAlex Jonescomedycomedianjokesfunnysand upmmaUFCUltimate Fighting Championship

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Comentarios 22 135
Ty Johson
Ty Johson Hace un hora
Why not Vimeo?
W Blood
W Blood Hace un hora
Jamie, shut the fuck up.
RastaJew
RastaJew Hace 2 horas
"We need some kind of guidelines." The way it used to work in the early days of the internet was that you could say anything you like as long as it wasn't illegal. And then it was up to the lawmakers to make it illegal to threaten people or dox them or whatever.
Jonny D
Jonny D Hace 6 horas
#peaceamongstworlds #rickandmorty
Skylar Arruda
Skylar Arruda Hace 6 horas
Jack is a shady fucking guy.
Lee Collins
Lee Collins Hace 8 horas
If this guy is so reasonable he shouldn't be a Bernie supporter. Tim says taxing the rich isn't the answer but that's Bernie's main platform and Bernie is the definition of an extremist and a socialist. I want to listen to this guy because I like the things he says about censorship but that fact he likes Bernie just makes me question how smart he is at all in the first place. The government's job isn't to give us free shit. And there is NO SUCH THING AS HATE SPEECH.
EG:UK
EG:UK Hace 9 horas
Wrong think will make you disappear.
Miguel Suarez-solis
Miguel Suarez-solis Hace 11 horas
Jaimie is such an sjw lol
Jет кхпg
Jет кхпg Hace 12 horas
Joe made his head very shiny for this one
kwadetweeling
kwadetweeling Hace 12 horas
As Tim was talking about, sometimes people just don't hear about what other people are claiming. This is the first I'm hearing the okay sign has been called a symbol of white supremacy. Not sure how I missed it before, but sometimes something slips through the cracks.
Erlend Herheim
Erlend Herheim Hace 13 horas
ehm, that taxes in Norway thing is total bullshit. We have less than 45% tax on 250 000$+ salary. 70% on 70k salary are totally made up numbers. United States’ top marginal income tax rate is higher than Norway’s (see: taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/ )
Thomas Spariz
Thomas Spariz Hace 13 horas
If it hasn't been said... Making the OK hand sign is ABSOLUTELY a game dudes play to have to hit you in the arm if you get caught looking at it. You have to make the sign below the waist, and then get someone to look. Played in the military alllll the time. Absolutely made up that it was some white power sign, and now people will do it troll. And yes, the 4 chan story etc.
A Gymnast
A Gymnast Hace 14 horas
Can start with term limits to cut some of the political corruption and private influence on power.
BigBoi Wolnir
BigBoi Wolnir Hace 14 horas
The leg sign punch game was extremely common in the army and we also endlessy knocked shit out of each other's hands, if you tried and missed you got to kick the guy who tried to knock the shit out of your hands we just fucked with each other because we were all friends people over think the dumbest shit
Aaron Temp
Aaron Temp Hace 14 horas
Tim blames the corruption and the monopolies on captitalism but then says he believes the mixed economy we have now is the best. The mixed economy, the centralized power part (socialist) creates the regulation, forces companies to merge and bails out the failures with our money. How is that captitalisms fault?
G Pie
G Pie Hace 15 horas
This episode should be called "Tim Pool educates Joe Rogan"
sam mayne
sam mayne Hace 16 horas
It's all about the money. Outrage - > traffic - > adds - > money
mattjza71
mattjza71 Hace 16 horas
1:20:14 OK, TIm get's this. How come so many younger people don't??? It's Education. I was in Middle school in the early 80's. When we were taught about Communism/Socialism in History class, the MAIN REASON WHY it always ALWAYS FAILS is because of Human Nature. Today's Teachers only indoctrinate. This should be treated as Treason.
Pat Williams
Pat Williams Hace 17 horas
"The problem with people keeping their property is some will have too much power. The solution to this is to have a bigger monopoly forcefully take more from these people." Does that really make sense?
Tyson Villeneuve
Tyson Villeneuve Hace 19 horas
By the way, the Circle Game has been around for decades among bro-dudes. My friends and I used to play it twenty years ago. It's not at all implausible that the guys in the picture were doing it as a goof.
Aaron Slater
Aaron Slater Hace 19 horas
1:00:00 The only problem with the OK symbol theory is that White Nationalists are not the type to be afraid of showing their symbols and what they believe in. Anyone willing to have a swastika tattooed on his throat probably won't give a shit about hiding his beliefs with some stupid hand signal.
Lloyd Nix
Lloyd Nix Hace 20 horas
I feel like Tim is Joe's son catching him up on the world.
Michael From Seattle
Michael From Seattle Hace 20 horas
1:31:45; "lets talk about the algorythmic apocalypse". -dude, MGS2 is WAAAAAAY ahead of you.
Jordan Hitchens
Jordan Hitchens Hace 21 un hora
Tim pool relatively unknown until this master podcast. One of Joe's most listened to and most liked podcasts ever.. Tim pool subscription doubled since and growing.
Jim Circle
Jim Circle Hace 21 un hora
Guys wondering if grown adults would play a "punching game" have never spent a nano-second in the military. Groups of men will take anything...and make it infantile. It's what we do! We're awesome at it.
Valdis Volks
Valdis Volks Hace 22 horas
We are living exactly what Yuri Bezmenov, an ex USSR KGB agent, described back in 1984
Rams495
Rams495 Hace 22 horas
Tim Poole is entirely right about the punching thing. I have teenage kids and we are always playing that game. We have even texted it to each other.
Rams495
Rams495 Hace 22 horas
Of course there's left wing bias. If you are left wing you can say or do anything. But someone perceived right wing you'll get banned, shadow or otherwise at the least little tweet. Being more famous doesn't protect you either. Joe even tried making the case that Donald Trump should be banned.
Snenors4pres
Snenors4pres Hace 23 horas
Bernie Sanders 1:17:20
Tyrone Warren
Tyrone Warren Hace 23 horas
🗣A *Neo* *Liberal* playing dress up as a *leftist* ! Get you *hustle* on Tim ,you may have no *integrity* but your rents paid ,right! *Clowns* & throw £££ at these people! Laughing at the blatant *transparency* from Tottenham,London,UK!! #INTEGRITYor£££
Jackin
Jackin Hace un día
"How many assumptions are you going to make before you start believing the moonlanding is fake" Tim remember who you're talking to...
ThePsychoCat
ThePsychoCat Hace un día
Tim come on how is holding the OK sign at all ill advised. It's perfectly fine. People are nuts
vinicius borges
vinicius borges Hace un día
This ok sign, i saw it before on Brazilian memes pages, totally a game, zero politics
Zimy IX
Zimy IX Hace un día
This whole thing is just a computer engineer explaining to Grandpa how to get to his email.
The Alliance
The Alliance Hace un día
Yeah okay Joe you didn't realize how important Free Speech was to people, come on man nobody buys that.
Shawn Briggs
Shawn Briggs Hace un día
Rogan is a drug addict and homo.
Sarioli Ravioli
Sarioli Ravioli Hace un día
Okay, that dude is annoying me. Tim is right, like even people in the military do the 👌 game.
Danny Fergusson
Danny Fergusson Hace un día
tim pools IQ < 115 pathetic specimen
bigbenhoward
bigbenhoward Hace un día
We played The Game with the ok hand-sign when I was in the military, and we ran around with guns and we killed people and people tried to kill us. People in dangerous jobs still like to goof around when they have time. That was back in the 2000s. It is not a new thing. It is not a white power thing.
Jordan Prochaska
Jordan Prochaska Hace un día
I just wish people would quit getting so butthurt over what someone said, and then rally together all these other butthurt people out there, because someone hurt your feeling 😭😭😭, no one can hurt my feeling, why because you can't, you can call me names, ect.. I'm just going to laugh, agree with you, make it into a joke ect.. There is no reason to get upset over what someone said to you no matter what they say, if you do then you need to take therapy classes for your problems if you are so much of a lowlife that you get butthurt over what someone said... Be concerned about you, not everyone else and what they say..btw 👌 made you look 🤜🤣
keysersozae
keysersozae Hace un día
Jamie, maybe interrupt less and make sure the tech works
lans carpool
lans carpool Hace un día
Can confirm being from the military we play games stupider than a legless horse with one eye and a rabbit's brain. Jamie shut the fuck up.
Robert Ruiz
Robert Ruiz Hace un día
We played that game in the army so it's not hard to think that some cops play it as well.
Nick B
Nick B Hace un día
Can see why there are so many thumbs downs... actually struggle to follow the train of thought of Tim. He doesnt finish his phrases
J Bandit
J Bandit Hace un día
Tim pool’s red pill journey
Anthony Ruiz
Anthony Ruiz Hace un día
666, not the ok sign. So it means multiple things. So just because u say it's not so doesnt mean people dont use it out of malice. It's just like the Rothschild call sign. Some people use it purposefully, others play fun on it, and still others accidentally use. This dude is way too defensive over a hand gesture. No one is saying these people went learn on 4chan. It's a fucking hand sign how easy to pass that around w a quick message. I'm not even sayin things are one way or the other but this dude is very sus being that defensive.
Anthony Ruiz
Anthony Ruiz Hace un día
Actually enjoyed the rest of show after being woken up by tims defensive cries. So glad he calmed down.
Tyson Villeneuve
Tyson Villeneuve Hace un día
Re: Megan Murphy, you might want to look into the person who is claiming to have spearheaded her Twitter ban. Absolute maniac.
Mark Johnson
Mark Johnson Hace un día
OMG people actually believe those guys weren't doing the game? They literally believe that was them showing they were white supremacists? Old people are so stupid lol. And fuck 4chan, this is why I hate them. Stop trolling the normies. edit: Tim Pool is completely right about it. They are a bunch of bros, its completely in line with their culture lol
Isaac Terinitz
Isaac Terinitz Hace un día
Lil Rascals Buckwheat confirmed White Supremecist. We need to take down the Buckwheat! TAKE EM DOWN! pbs.twimg.com/media/DmYGmUCUUAArG9a.jpg
Caolho, o Pirata
Caolho, o Pirata Hace un día
Jamie fell hard for the meme. The ok_hand being a white supremcist symbol was fabricated by 4/pol/ to "troll libtards epic style"; it's a fact, I was in the thread at the moment, and if you want you could probably find said thread in the archives. It's pretty amusing
matt eckert
matt eckert Hace un día
So Jaime believes the ok symbol is white supremacy symbolism does that mean, he also believes that milk is also a white power symbol? 4chsn said that too.
Martin B
Martin B Hace un día
Tim is one of the only leftists I can stomach listening to. You don’t have to agree on everything people. The question is can you converse? Cant do that with an NPC
bulavo
bulavo Hace un día
Jamie "i need to shut the fuck up" Vernon
Neko91485
Neko91485 Hace un día
The OK punch game is def played by people in their 30s and 40s... know all too well
Shiloh Sanders
Shiloh Sanders Hace un día
Tim “we need less government power there is too much government bloat and corruption” also Tim “we need to pay the government more money”. Such a thinking guy just stops because of his ideology. 10% of people pay 90% of the tax, yet they’re not paying their fair share. Cmon bro.
Toni Geiger
Toni Geiger Hace un día
Total snooze fest.
M0rn1n6St4r
M0rn1n6St4r Hace un día
2:40:05 Also... Universal Basic Income will increase DEMAND... which will increase PRICES... which will motivate people to SUPPLEMENT their INCOME... by getting a JOB... such as SELLING AUTOMATION ROBOTS. Only SOME OF WHICH will have "fallen off the back of a truck". :-) Lord... give us health, and strength. We'll STEAL the rest!
Dave Cunningham
Dave Cunningham Hace un día
Interesting. I agree pretty much 100% politically with what Tim has stated, yet I go to his ESvid page and it's all pot-stirring click-bait type headlines (a la Daily Wire) with none of the political balance he speaks of. As someone who is a fan of Kyle Kulinski, I'd love to see these two have a compare/contrast. Just a first impression; I'll check out some of his stuff.
M0rn1n6St4r
M0rn1n6St4r Hace un día
2:40:05 Expecting Universal Basic Income, while the world continues to FAIL to adequately address climate change, is folly. AI and automation SOLVE the manmade portion of the climate change problem. Few people with enough money for food, and clean water; to drastically reduce human population. It is the UNREVEALED solution to climate change, the world's decision makers have tacitly chosen... through policies which FAIL to DRASTICALLY REDUCE EMISSIONS. The NUMBER ONE producer of EMISSIONS: AGRICULTURE, and the transport of AGRICULTURAL products. How may farms... or feed lots... are located in downtown Manhattan... or Los Angeles? Drastic population reduction ALSO drastically reduces emissions. BREAKING NEWS! Everyone... please, keep busy... continue putting bandaids on broken legs. Get an electric car! Never mind that 66% of the electricity used to charge its batteries comes from COAL-FIRED power-plants. It's "CLEAN COAL"! Get yourself 2, or 3 "SMART" devices! Never mind that each one connects to server farms, and infrastructure... making EACH DEVICE the equivalent of operating a HAIR-DRYER or TOASTER... 24/7. It doesn't rely on TECHNOLOGY governed by the laws of THERMODYNAMICS. It seems like "magic", so it must be "magic". What is the correct pronoun for "PUTTING OUT FIRES WITH GASOLINE"? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! He's empowered us to change the WORLD! Now... we can make it WORSE... FASTER, and CHEAPER! smh We are just a few billion people away... or, a couple of years of AGRICULTURAL FAILURE... from massive population collapse. Rabbit populations ALSO spike... right before they exhaust their food, and water supply. Most famines happen because the LOCAL population had its FOOD SUPPLY sold to OTHER PARTIES. Typically, the powers behind such actions use MERCENARIES (a.k.a. PMCs). The "War on Terror" was the perfect pretext to legalize "MURDER FOR HIRE". One can always hire ONE HALF of the poor, to KILL the OTHER HALF. There are just over 2,200 billionaires in the world, with an average net worth of $4B. Those 2,200 BILLIONAIRES are worth as much as 8,800,000... MILLIONAIRES. Each millionaire, however, is ONLY worth as much as 1,000... HOMELESS (net worth = $1,000). Even the homeless have POSSESSIONS. If you are ONLY A MILLIONAIRE, make no mistake... you are one of the poor. But, you are probably one of the poor that the BILLIONAIRES will hire... for what comes next. With modern weapons, and force multipliers, I predict 1/8th of the population will be sufficient to DEPRIVE the other 7/8ths of "new" food, and water. Ancient Rome was repeatedly held hostage by small bands of "barbarians" who attacked their AQUEDUCT. After a few days without water, the Senate would capitulate to the demands of these "enemies of Rome". The Roman armies could not be recalled from their posts throughout the empire quickly enough to rescue the citizens of Rome. But, if the Ancient Romans could have tasked an AIR FORCE on their enemies, their enemies would have failed. Aerial (and satellite) surveillance, and defense of "strategic" resources will dissuade the "excluded" from raids on food, and water supplies. Superior numbers against superior technology are effective ONLY when the force is DISCIPLINED. Attack in force, attack in waves; make the enemy EXHAUST their ammunition, supplies, and morale. Look at the Soviets against the Nazis (Stalingrad). Look at the Vietnamese against the U.S. Look at the Afghanis against the Soviets... and the U.S. Without DISCIPLINE, and COHESION... superior numbers will mean NOTHING. A pack of wolves may prevail against a GRIZZLY BEAR. But, only if they DO NOT QUIT when the bear DESTROYS the first couple of wolves. As is true for ALL PREDATORS... the other 7/8ths will (eventually, or INITIALLY) choose to prey on the EASIEST victims. Each other. By the time they realize that the ONLY ones with ANYTHING left to take, are the ones who had EVERYTHING at the beginning... their numbers will have depleted to an insufficient force... thirsty... starving... and LOW ON AMMO. And, they'll be bringing firearms to a DRONE fight. That could never happen? Ask Nazi-occupied Europe if they saw it all coming... but, remained in Europe, anyway. It will be "Lebensraum" in reverse. And, the people on whom it is perpetrated, will have DEMANDED that their food, and water be protected by a military force... From the FOREIGN "hordes". There are ENTIRE NATIONS of HAVE-NOTS. Why do you think so many right-wing, nationalists are on the rise in SO MANY COUNTRIES? Those who support "nationalism" are the "useful idiots" of their own demise. So, good luck! The bad news: we are a disaster waiting to happen. The good news: we won't be waiting long. :-)
john doe
john doe Hace 2 días
I need to find another podcast. The only thing being talked about os controversy. I came here for positive enlightenment. Any recommendations?
SuperRoycethe59
SuperRoycethe59 Hace 2 días
jamie wishes he was a smart black guy. he's the exact opposite in reality. a dumb white guy. definitely gay.
SuperRoycethe59
SuperRoycethe59 Hace 2 días
hurts watching my big toe try to comprehend econ
3k3z
3k3z Hace 2 días
Jamie butthurt he got out-interneted
NeoSolomonX
NeoSolomonX Hace 2 días
Liar Joe Rogan,
Alex
Alex Hace 2 días
Good lord Jamie is so fucking dumb
Jose luis Canales
Jose luis Canales Hace 2 días
Jaime shut up. You’re are not the guest or the host, shot up. You obviously want to believe the less probable and worse outcome. You might have some pent racism. I hope you were playing devil’s advocate.
Shaun Koreshowell/Bunds
This is obnoxious. That guy is a fucking idiot. White power swat because I want to be stupid as fuck
Beans
Beans Hace 2 días
Joe "what do you think about artificial intelligence" Rogan.
Green Dholia
Green Dholia Hace 2 días
damn tim comes off as incredibly edgy sometimes, props to joe for keeping it all cool :)
Joseph Ornelas
Joseph Ornelas Hace 2 días
55:00 I am AMAZED that they thought this was a white power symbol instead of the "made ya look" game. I have never seen or heard anyone reference that as a white power symbol. I've only ever seen that used during the made ya look game. And yes, grown ass adults play this. My ex was an RN - all the staff in the hospital, including doctors, played this damn game. I have friends in law enforcement from prison guards to highway troopers that play this game. But not once in my damn life have I known anyone to use it on the context of white power. This little segment actually blew my mind.
matts spelman
matts spelman Hace 2 días
Tim is wrong they're not playing a game? That's the Muslim power symbol
Mugiwara Lee
Mugiwara Lee Hace 2 días
Fun fact: The Gellman-Amnesia Effect was coined by Michael Crichton aka the dude who wrote Jurassic Park. c:
Kgoings Goings
Kgoings Goings Hace 2 días
Fuckin finaly
anonymous _
anonymous _ Hace 2 días
Castro1020 needs to chill out
nowthisnamestaken
nowthisnamestaken Hace 2 días
This is the first time I have seen or heard of Tim Pool. Very cool guy.
Dane Duncan
Dane Duncan Hace 2 días
I know a group of officers in the military that I went to school with who play that Okay game constantly. Surprisingly they’re normal people just like us
Dire Straitz
Dire Straitz Hace 2 días
Tim Poole is Bari Weiss' male counterpart (I'm assuming) How many times did he say - when asked a direct question about his statements - responds "I don't wanna say. . " ? I counted 3 or 4x. They should do a NYTs column together called "Look it up - I don't wanna say." Chickenshits make lousy journalists. And he needs to slow his rate of speech bc his mouth is 22 miles ahead of his brain.
Dire Straitz
Dire Straitz Hace 2 días
Tim Poole - you make a huge deal about an overstep by AOC, but fail to recognize you: 1. forgot to take your ADD motor mouth meds 2. ignore the fact she is the fly in the corporate punchbowl and it's just pushback against horsecock like "If you want a job - there is a job" Fuck you and your rabid rabbit speech patterns that seem to get ahead of any common sense you may actually have lurking in the back room but which is frustrated it can't get a fucking word in edgewise. Only idiots watch/read MSM. Thanks for telling us who you are. Good thing you don't hang with "Like minded people" 😄😉😳 Re: Trump utterances Trump said "If you elect this guy as governor - CA will be a BILLION people very soon - I promise you." Any and all claims Trump said something stupid retarded racist whatever is likely true. But who honestly gives a fuck? I never thought I'd ever agree w Ann Coulter but the only emergency in America is our president is an idiot. (Figure the pop of s Am, central Am and N Am.)
Moulton Steel
Moulton Steel Hace 2 días
rip to tim for the missed Rick and Morty peace among worlds reference
Eric Spaete
Eric Spaete Hace 2 días
I'm not sure if this guy is incredibly uninteresting or if its just the topics.
Luke BL
Luke BL Hace 2 días
I can’t take a guy seriously if he’s crying about Twitter , who gives a flying fuck .
boz box
boz box Hace 2 días
I'm old enough to be Tim's dad, so when I say he's my boy, you get the juxt. This was fuckin' brilliant!
Benjamin Baldridge
Benjamin Baldridge Hace 2 días
Eventually we'll turn Tim to the dark side and he will no longer be center left.
Javier m
Javier m Hace 2 días
Fuck this pussy leftard f agg ot fence sitting cuck tim pool.
Michael Mud-Dragon
Michael Mud-Dragon Hace 2 días
59:40 "entirely possible" arguments are stupid. You're making an argument based on your imagination, not on fact, then asking someone to prove a negative.
Dinky Grambus
Dinky Grambus Hace 2 días
Jamie revealed how far left he is here. What a moronic unthinking arrogant piece of shit.
Arzo Arsalan
Arzo Arsalan Hace 2 días
the three-point hand gesture in Arabic countries it means that you'll be beaten to a pulp by your mom :-D haha and we have several jokes on that, in PADI it means OK meaning you won't die underwater. And we used to play punch if you look at the three-point.
pat mat
pat mat Hace 2 días
34:25 It's harder because they now theirs ideological shallowness is going to get exposed by the smarter person in the room and they don't want to look stupid in public.
cmike123
cmike123 Hace 2 días
I really cant get behind this guy's logic. He knows that Twitter is not a government entity. He knows it's a corporation. They can ban whomever they want to. The government will step in if Twitter discriminates against a protected Class. You can chose to not like it, then express your prerogative of not using the product or using the competition. How is this a hard concept??
Chris March
Chris March Hace 2 días
1:27.00 a leftist saying these things?
thewallofsleep
thewallofsleep Hace 2 días
Bring this man back on a future podcast. What a great guest.
Merc E.Z.
Merc E.Z. Hace 2 días
Guys, Honestly one of my top 5 JRE shows.. this was a really great discussion on all sides (except joe and jamie not knowing about the circle game)
SuperCannibas420
SuperCannibas420 Hace 2 días
jack had turtle setting on, tim set it to bunny
Louisiana Focus
Louisiana Focus Hace 2 días
Jamie sucks. I turn it off when he starts talking. He said that "I know that they weren't making the Made You Look sign because I play it all the time with my friends." Hahahahaha!!!!! He's an idiot! He's the same age as the cops who took the picture! He's worse than Callen.
Jefe Cristo
Jefe Cristo Hace 2 días
Tim makes an argument against UBI saying people will choose to do nothing for $12K a year than keep a job at $10 per hour ($19,200 per year, now with first $24K essentially fed tax free) and have $31K per year (the UBI being a tax free allotment). They will choose to lose $7K per year for their “time” (“my time is worth more than $10 per hour”). Less than 10 minutes later Tim says there is a report stating men need/want jobs in order to be fulfilled. If men need/want jobs in order to be fulfilled, but they will choose not to have jobs to go skate board and play video games at below poverty, those are conflicting concepts. UBI is not a solution. It is a supplement to address basic living needs allowing people to start at the bottom and progress upward. You could eliminate all other forms of “welfare” programs and even make a case to eliminate or lower the minimum wage requirements. You could also remove all exploits currently ailing the welfare system now by not adjusting for family size. There are so many ways to appease both political sides if people could have open minded conversations but both sides just death grip their ideaology into ridiculous realms of discourse.
E Hop23
E Hop23 Hace 2 días
If you don’t realize that Alexandria Cortez is placed in the position she’s in BY DESIGN to push through these bills the left government has DESIGNED...
Taylor Sims
Taylor Sims Hace 2 días
Still play the punch game now. If you haven't seen it, it became more popular after Malcolm in the Middle. Nah Jamie
Merc E.Z.
Merc E.Z. Hace 2 días
4Chan Go Go Go!!!
Merc E.Z.
Merc E.Z. Hace 2 días
Jesus the circle game is racist?! EVERY male I went to school with is racist now!! What next? Is B-Spice going to Be racist next?
Julio Romero
Julio Romero Hace 2 días
Tim is educating the masses about how people joke perpetually. Good stuff
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Something's Coming...
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